Verbal sparring

Okay so my best friend and I do a lot of what we call 'verbal sparring'. It's where one of us plays the devil's advocate on a topic and we see where we can take the argument. The following is today's verbal spar. Also, my friend's blog (one of them) and my response to his most recent can be found at here

His words are italicized

by the way, if God made everything so proper, and perfect, why would he intervene in anything? to intervene means you regret a decision, or missed something somewhere

	so either, he is fallible and fucked up and therefore has to 'tweak the system' so to speak (which proves he doesnt do perfect things)

	or he isnt in control of any processes OTHER than interveneing

	again, lessening his powers, and omnipresence

	plus, if god is timeless and omnipresent, then he would, as soon as he realized he would need to have granted a prayer, changed things much earlier on so that prayer was never needed to be made

	the fact that we ask for his help, shows us that we dont think he's perfect

	if he is perfect, than anything you are praying for, you were not meant to have

werd

unless you believe in the divine plan

and that everything that occur is according to it

our prayers are merely minor wishes and miracles to reveal it

	and therefore by praying for intervention, in and of itself, shows you believe that God has made a mistake, or not taken notice of you, or that you DESERVE something. if you deserved it, you would have it, if he thought you did, and therefore you would not need to pray for it

prayers is just a way to connect to God and become closer to "Him"

we deserve nothing!

only what he decides we are worth

or something like that

	right, then prayers should never be questions, or requests

	because if you deserved the answers, you would have them

we are only human! god shows his mercy and the ability to have this dialogue allows us to become closer. to interact with god is a miracle in itself. that is the tru purpose of prayer

the question, or request is truly just to feel him in our lives

our petitions should be out of this

	but they arent

if we pray in vain, which some of us do, it is not God's mistake but ours.

	if you say "i prayed for your healing" or "our prayers helped" it means you wanted God to change his plan

his plan is not so rigid as to not allow miracles. perhaps you have considered that allowing miracles and prayers to be answered is part of the plan?

surely his thoughts and plans are beyond our rational capacity

*bows and makes the sign of the cross*

	right, but his plan allowing for miracles

	means he allowed for imperfection or holes in the system to begin with

	if he intervenes at all

	for any reason

	it means he messed up in creating it

	and why wouldnt he see the prayers before they happened, and grant them?

all that is "evil" and imperfect is a result of sin, both of adam and eve's and lucifer's

it is not God but he has allowed us free will

and so this evil , these mistakes and horros in this world

are due to the great fall

our choices have wrought our punishment

and so has satan's

	if he is timeless, then why not keep people from needing to pray at all? the miracles he wants to answer, he does, the ones he doesnt, he doesnt. if he knows the number of hairs on your head, wouldnt he know everything you will pray for before it happens? wont he know you will pray for this or for that? before you are even born?

but we are not machines, to be programmed and to be expected of

do you see? that connection, that love, that will of ours which wishes to join him

that is what he Treasures

	right, but God is timeless and omnipresent, to God, you must be pre-programmed

	he knows the choices you will make

	the moment he places your soul into your body

we are not just robots, not even to God

our choice, like Him, is given to us

and our hearts are not machines

	but he knows our choice

remember, we were made in His image

	or he isnt omnipresent or timelss

he certainly knows, but just as surely as a father will know of what his son may choose, but it his son is not a mere programmed creation.... the beauty of the son being able to reject his father, that will- that is what God has allowed to be free. and that is why God does not necessarily play it all like a machine

	if we arent pre-programmed in his eyes, if he doesnt know our exact choices before we make them, then he doesnt have the abilities he is claimed to have. and if our free-will isnt pre-programmed, then that means we baffle God, and surprise him. but a being that sees all things past, present, and future, cannot be baffled, can he?

He can be all that he wishes to be

within or without logic

*takes off sparring gloves*

*unpauses The Bouncer*

	okay, so your argument began with "devine plan" which, by the end of all this just means and boils down to "god is beyond our logic and comprehension, who are we to say what is and isnt right for him to do?"

god's will be done, yes.

	well, you claim to know him pretty well, you claim a single book of yours tells you all that you need

	so, you are undoing your new argument

god lets us understand his will, according to our limited knowledge

but we acknowledge that it will play out in ways beyond our understanding

	so you cannot understand him, but you are allowed to understand him in our limited way

yes

the rest requires faith

	then that undoes the whole "devine plan"

and an open heart

how so?

	if we are able to understand him in our limited way

	then we can understand god

	and he isnt so complex we cannot comprehend his logic

	we were created in his image

	but not that well enough to totally contemplate all his aspects?

we aren't able to understand him, totally. that is the point

we can only reason so far

	right, and reason tells me he is flawed

	and faith tells you otherwise

we must move beyond logic

and his spirit, his presence

will help you see

	beyond logic

	so you dont use logic then?

	what do you use?

	if you are beyond logic, what are you using to explain things?

we can and have always used logic, but that hasn't been the greatest tool to understand God and his Will

Faith

and direct experience of a personal God

and the inspired scriptures

are our guidelines

	by the way, if you are beyond logic, then you cannot say u are using logic to understand or explain God, or that you are using a rational mind

sure we can. it's a human capacity... just because you grow up doesn't mean you haven't built up on your past

holistic perspective, no?

but we know the limits

our limits